Oh, your link is broken in the post itself I think

Oof I’m sorry to hear it, wishing you all the best of luck. I get super nostalgic for online spaces, the idea of getting locked out of somewhere you built memories with friends is really sad

Didn’t skype shut down just this week?

what is DEXA and why does a scan for osteopenia matter for body fat?

HA. Yes this is the question at the very heart of the issue. Why is a misappropriated bone scan with notoriously inaccurate readings when used to measure body fat championed as the “gold standard” for doing so? A fascinating subject if you pry into it. At the bottom of the rabbit hole is simply the tendency of scammers to create scams. But I sense that further elaboration on my part is not appropriate at the moment.

Otherwise, to be honest I disagree with your advice. (I hope it goes without saying that you are equally free to ignore my words, and that I wish you well either way) I think presenting OP as “the person trying to learn” is a lopsided mischaracterization. They repeatedly asserted specific, grandiose claims without evidence. I directed my comment towards them personally because indeed they personally were the one running damage control for a random brand. Even going so far as to bring up the rest of that company’s product line lol.

Secondly, frankly, people can simply look up the words if they want the full context. Like I said this scam is incredibly well documented. Anyone who is capable of differentiating a company’s marketing from actual research will arrive at the truth quickly. If they can’t, and instead present me with mere marketing material, well hey, we can proceed from there if the attempt appears to be in good faith.

Which is the crux of our issue here. You and others consider OP to be posting in good faith. I do not, for many reasons, and as such continue to stand by exactly what said. I have acknowledged that I may be wrong about that, and the inherent problems that creates, but at the end of everything I simply disagree with that take. I notice someone else responded to OP as well, with a softer tone, and was also ignored. The truth is there simply is no truth whatsoever in what they said, and they quickly realized this and tried to flip it around on me when I called it out.

I do appreciate your insight and perspective despite our disagreement on some matters. Thank you for the discussion

Fair enough yeah. My way with words can absolutely be too serrated at times, in an unproductive way. There’s also the matter of unclear framing in the comment in question, sure.

But I don’t really see that my argument has shifted at any point. The actual content is the same, if perhaps taking it as granted that we will all be on the same page regarding who has the burden of proof. You’re saying that I deflected and instead asked for proof that my point was wrong, when what I did was correctly reposition the argument (“You are the one [making the positive claim here] [thus you are actually the one who needs to bring sources]”). I can see how it can be read the way you describe, but ultimately I don’t think that interpretation is correct. I may be to blame for that, sure, so hopefully continuing to elaborate here when pressed is doing some good to clarify the whole picture.

Some additional context here which is admittedly invisible, is that having immersed myself in the fitness industry, I am constantly presented with such scams lol. So at a certain point I have become quite unapologetic in my condemnation of them all. It’s why I come up with things like, “The reason you can’t find any source for this is because these are all worthless scams” and “whoever told you that is a con artist liar, exile them from your life” lol.

And hopefully by now it can no longer be said that I am refusing any type of deeper delving. The happiness that I feel in continuing to do so is also ongoing, even if by tone one would assume at points that I am impatient or irritated

The irony being that these companies pushing the scam products are themselves presenting as experts with an absolute standpoint. A standpoint which of course involves paying them a bunch of money to acquire extremely specific capabilities which are totally unfounded in reality.

Which makes you raising this principle very interesting: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You are misapplying the concept.

If I said, “there are no bears in the woods”, then yes now I have to carefully and thoroughly demonstrate this. An impossible task in fact, since I simply cannot check behind every tree. Indeed, even if I did check every tree, bears move around, and I could miss one despite it really being there! Therefore it is wrong for me argue such a strong negative, and it would be proper to instead say, “I haven’t seen any bears”. I’m with you on this.

Now imagine if some company says, “The woods are full of dangerous bears! You should buy our bear repelling hat!”, and I say, “This is actually a well known scam tactic, and this company is just selling useless hats. Another company is selling bear pants, and yet another company is doing shoes. It’s all bullshit. Don’t waste your money. Use proven methods such as bear spray.”

Now in this situation, sure, you can try to start a semantic argument with me about whether or not it is philosophically just for me to state “the hats are useless” in such absolute terms. Structurally, that snippet is the same, yes? A strongly phrased negative. Doesn’t it run into the same problem?

It turns out, no. You see, the scam company at this point in time has already made the claim that the hats are useful. This is a claim that absolutely requires a source. The fact that they are forcefully presenting this claim despite having no source is itself proof that the product is a scam. By the very nature of the phenomenon in question, there needs to be a source before they make the claims.

In other words, once a company is claiming that an effect is present in fact, then absence of evidence becomes evidence of absence. Because they are simply fucking lying lol. We don’t need to keep doing this every week with every company that runs the same scam template with a different article of clothing.

Anyway, you wound me with your incorrect assertion that I have deflected anything, when I directly answered the questions I was asked and provided further information on things to look into, such as DEXA scans. Anyone bothered by my strong language will quickly discover the reality that every reputable study ever performed relating to these devices recommends against them.

TL;DR: Our study shows that although smart scales are accurate for total body weight, they should not be used routinely to assess body composition, especially in patients with severe obesity.

What is there to believe or disbelieve when the problems of this method are so incredibly well documented? The body is not as simple as you’re portraying, the measurement can swing in either direction for many reasons over the course of months and years. Rely on these measurements at your own peril

You can certainly pinch the same spot on the same day and get the same number a few times in a row, sure. But as your body changes you become a different organism. It’s not always going to be consistently wrong in the same way. Self administering the skin fold test makes the problem even worse.

Setting aside the fact that they are neither precise nor accurate at tracking trends, why are you recomping?

No really, let’s think about why you’re changing your body. Is it for a strength sport? Is it to improve your health? Is it to become more muscular? Do you want to run faster?

Because all of these things are completely self evident. Simply take a step back and examine whether or not you are actually making progress towards your goals. Whether you are stronger, faster, etc. If your doctor is happy with your new bloodwork.

All of the various bf% scams are so ridiculous at the outset because in fitness, we have such specific tangible goals. There’s no situation where having a figure for your bf% actually assists or informs you in any way. If you are achieving your goals in fact then the number shouldn’t dissuade you. If you are not achieving your goals in fact, then you shouldn’t let the number gaslight you about it and make you feel better. You need to make adjustments based on your actual results, not on something as nebulous and abstracted as bf%.

Especially not when the best, most expensive methods can at best tell you your number within six percent. Which is completely absurd. That 8% vs 14%. Literally guessing a number while looking in a mirror is more accurate for the purpose of tracking progress

Which parts of their business are a scam?

The bioelectric impedance scales, as I have been consistently saying the entire time. I have no expertise or opinion about their other products. It’s entirely plausible that they may furnish you with a functional blood pressure device, but to be honest I am reticent to support any company that offers scam products alongside their legitimate options.

Why are they used in research?

Whoever severely misled you into believing that this company’s products are some important cornerstone of scientific research should be totally exiled from your consideration. Hopefully it’s only a result of their ridiculous marketing and this will be a simple correction

Do you have any source on why they are entirely unusable?

You are the one claiming they are not only usable but scientifically important, please feel free to furnish any sources proving they can tell your bf% better than +/-5%. The reason you can’t find any is because none of the the methods, including DEXA scans, are functionally accurate at all. The entire field exists to scam people who are trying to better themselves

It doesn’t inform any decisions

Excellent, I encourage you to never deviate from this path

I strongly encourage you to disregard the bf% information that scale provides you, even if it is only a passing curiosity. It can and will taint your general understanding of the body and your relationship with fitness. I would recommend even disabling it entirely if possible, and would even recommend replacing it with a non-“smart” scale if the option is at all economical for you. I’m happy to explore the subject further and suggest alternatives if you so desire

Skin fold calipers, in the best possible case scenario when administered by a trained expert, have such a significant margin of error as to make them functionally useless. I strongly discourage you from lending any credence whatsoever to their measurements when determining your plans regarding training and nutrition.

See my other comment regarding the smart scales, but it’s the same situation. They’re not “always consistently wrong by the same amount” per individual. If so, then yes, that would be useful for tracking trends. Sadly they are not

Apologies, but the Omrom scales are a fundamentally worthless scam. I strongly discourage you from relying on them for any purpose relating to bf%, and strongly encourage you to disregard any information you receive from sources that imply the information they provide you is worthwhile. It’s incredibly common for the handlebar bioelectric impedance devices to be used in gym contexts to try and push personal training (“Free consultation including a bodyfat scan!”). I additionally encourage you to discontinue your subscription to any gym that offers this, and leave them a negative review specifying why you left.

The fitness industry is bursting with many such scams. I advise you to disregard them all. I’m happy to delve into this subject in as much depth as you may be interested in

I think they can at least track trends consistently

I’m sorry to say, but they can’t. It would be one thing if, for you as an individual, the error was always consistent (e.g., “always five hours ahead”). Then at least you would be able to track trends over time. Sadly, the technology itself is not reliable in that way and should never be relied on to track trends.

The other response is correct. Many “smart” scales claim to be able to tell you not only your weight, but also what percentage of your weight is lean mass vs body fat.

They are not accurate in that respect and should never be used

Normal scales that just tell you your weight, whether digital or analogue, are generally correct and reliable

Those things are totally bogus if it makes you feel any better. Changes in body composition are not reflected properly via bioelectric impedance.

Truth is every bf% measurement is pretty much just a guess with a huge range of error. Far more practical to find some other measurement to track, such as athletic performance (lifting, cardio times) while keeping a loose eye on your weight

100% real btw, they showed new footage and confirmed 2025

That’s not really an accurate summary of my response, nor of the prompt.

I was directly and specifically asked “why not take creatine?”, and yes, the annoying proliferation of supplement culture is one of about ten issues I listed.

And while not the fault of creatine alone, I am shocked that anyone would not take issue with it. When every influencer is shilling supplements. When you walk into a gym and they sell supplements themselves behind the counter. When a beginner hires a personal trainer and they gush about the many different supplements they need to start buying, but end up barely improving anyway because their actual training is sub par.

When a would-be beginner is repulsed by the idea of stepping under a barbell at all, because their only exposure to the gym was their gross bro-y roommate in college who monopolized the top of the fridge with his collection of huge tubs of all the different ridiculous powders everyone thinks they need.

It is far from nonsense my friend, it is a notable social harm. This is lemmy, yes, we’re likely a bit older? You’ve lived enough now to see some friends and relatives crumble with age? Resistance training is the best thing to prevent this. Normal people are repulsed by the tubs of powder. Many people are repulsed enough to purposefully avoid training. This is a terrible thing.

I wouldn’t belabor the point if its truth hadn’t confronted me so many times. I would be curious to get your actual thoughts on the matter, rather than your unsupported and rather offensive insinuation that I am the one who hasn’t thought carefully about all this.

Sure, if you want to know earnestly some reasons why not.

For starters, it is literally completely unnecessary.

Beyond that, it perpetuates the broader harmful falsehood that lifters need a cabinet of supplements, thereby turning many people away from the gym who are repulsed by the idea.

The above falsehood has personally annoyed me many times. I am visibly very muscular, and have had friends, family, and even strangers warn me, unprompted, about the dangers of supplements lol. I gather there was a news story about lead in protein powder that went viral, and everyone assumes I must be taking all the powders, probably because of how cavalier gym folk are about insisting everyone hop on all the powders

It has a gross sandy texture, upsets people’s stomaches (especially if they try the “creatine loading” phase which is so popularly suggested), and interferes with their sleep (if the countless anecdotes are to be believed).

It does have potential serious side effects in some populations that don’t get talked about often. People with bipolar disorder shouldn’t risk taking it, neither should people with kidney disease.

If you are healthy and ever get bloodwork done, you need to remember to explain to your doctor that you supplement creatine beforehand, otherwise they may think you have kidney disease.

Five grams per day of creatine monohydrate dissolved in a glass of water is cheap. Creatine pills are not. Creatine gummy bears are not. Creatine in preworkout (yet another constantly shilled powder) is not. The massive list of non-monohydrate creatine products are neither cheap nor effective lol. When we say “definitely everyone should hop on creatine!”, a good percentage of people will end up going down one of those paths.

And to top it all off, the beneficial effects for muscle building are dramatically overstated. People talk about it like it creates some cascading compound interest effect you can’t afford to miss out on, when in actual reality, everyone who has been around the block knows you reach the point of diminishing returns very quickly when you are consistent in the gym lol. If you put 5 hard years in without it, there isn’t a soul on earth who could pick you apart in a lineup of creatine users.

Now your response to all this may be “none of this is really that big deal!” and you know what? I agree. I frequently cite creatine as being one of the big three non-scam supplements (protein, caffeine, creatine). They have a real effect, unlike virtually all other gym products. My issue, to put it most broadly, is with the attitude we perpetuate regarding supplementation in general. That it’s so thoroughly and totally taken for granted that every single person should want to pay for and incorporate every single advantage.

That we frame it as being “an advantage” at all, as if the simple love of training is not in and of itself a great joy which transforms the lives of everyone it reaches. No no, instead, as is typical of all “worthy” pursuits, it is an investment to be capitalized upon. Faster is always better, bigger is always better. Do not allow yourself to be captivated by the scenery flying by, if for a moment it distracts you from shoveling ever more coal into the furnace of this godforsaken train everyone insists our life must become.

ahem. Well, apologies for going off the rails a bit there. That’s been stewing in me for a long time. I also don’t take protein powder lmao

train more faster

We can discuss the merits of specific supplements all day, but I find this mindset paradoxically results in worse progress for most people