I can tell you, American liberals are just as much to blame for fascism as the uneducated morons brainwashed by it.

“D-don’t blame people who allowed fascism to take over… that’s mean… but FUCK those who tried to stop it, literally as bad as fascists!”

About the level of discourse I expect from Lemmy at this point.

Facts don’t matter. All up and down this thread is just utter disregard for any aspect of reality that contradicts the narrative.

We’re not any smarter than the fascists, apparently. Just less morally repugnant.

Yeah, but first you were talking about how the general populace was going right

They subsequently elected Starmer, of all people, didn’t they?

This idea that success (which maybe doesn’t require to form the next government) translates to a higher share in votes might be a statistical thing, but it’s not constructive, it just leads to opportunism.

I’m sorry, if Corbyn didn’t form a government, as majority or coalition partner, didn’t move politics in the UK left, nor politics in his own party left, nor moved demographics in the UK left… what kind of success are we looking at, here?

For the record, I’m not blaming Corbyn for this loss. Far from it. I’m only saying that going left is not enough

Yeah you can say that to suit your narrative, but it’s complete BS. In fact Corbyn had significantly more votes in 2017 and 2019 than Starmer in 2024.

Which governments did Labour form at the time, again?

The left has to convince voters, not follow them, wtf

Electoral success and convincing people are not mutually exclusive options; the former is an immensely powerful tool for the latter. Unless your plan is “Hand the gun over to the fascists, put it to your head, and hope that when they pull the trigger it will inspire the masses to spontaneously learn the words to the Internationale in their hearts and rise up against fascism”, it involves some amount of concessions to the majority of voters.

But sure, run on gay marriage in 1940 until you win, I’m sure the Black folk who are being lynched won’t mind waiting another few decades, nor will the unions seeking better conditions, nor the folks trying to stop social security from being repealed etc etc etc etc.

And when you ask them what performative outrage that is, their answer is generally less “They made minor economic concessions to the working class!” and more “They acknowledged that BROWN people and TRANS people have RIGHTS”

deleted by creator

You made no real argument whatsoever originally other than saying Obama wasnt a neoliberal president, which is just baseless and stupid.

Would you like to re-read my original response and point out where I said anything about the neoliberal characterization of Obama, or is that too arduous and trying a task to attempt?

You refuse to asses information from an article that well predates the Palestinian Genocide by a longshot and has nothing to do with the conflict whatsoever.

That’s not one of the several genocides that Jacobin denies, and thus not one of the ones I was talking about. Though, for that matter, the article certainly does not predate 1948.

Best of luck living with your head in the sand

What irony.

Oh fuck off dude, youre pathetic and you know it.

For… objecting to something that you said, and that you have been entirely incapable of mounting even a nominal defense of, probably because you’re aware that it was said as bad-faith bullshit with no grounding in reality?

Uh, okay.

If I wanted campist apologia from genocide deniers, I could read Jacobin rag on my own time. I’ll pass on someone trying to use it as a replacement for having thoughts of their own. I note that you didn’t actually respond to what I actually objected to,

He massively carried water for the whole “if I made it, anyone can” and “black people suffer from a culture of poverty” type of nonsense,

But I guess that would require you to defend the points you make, and wouldn’t that just be an awful fate?

when in reality they’re walking hand in hand with people that are pushing us to absolute limit of barely acceptable and then dangling what they’ve known they should’ve done forever ago in front of us when we’re finally at our breaking point.

Please, talk to some ordinary Americans sometime. Some of the real, salt-of-the-earth types who regularly and reliably vote, and who make up the majority of the country.

You know, morons.

“The Dems aren’t going left enough fast enough!” is not generally the refrain, even from those who do vote Dem.

ChatGPT ass reply bro touch grass

Lord.

Well ACKSHULLY wanting common sense solutions is right wing coded!

Have you ever had a discussion with conservatives about what they think is ‘common sense’?

Have you ever paid attention to how often conservatives discuss ‘common sense’ solutions that appeal to people who want to think that their deeply politicized views aren’t political at all?

Do you know what ‘common sense’ is to fucking begin with?

Fuck’s sake. It’s like talking to someone who’s voted GOP for the past 50 years of their fucking life but insists that they’re a ‘moderate’.

Suppose you’re not going to answer about how Dems being ‘ideologues’ right now who won’t compromise, and how ‘meeting in the middle’ with fascist voters will totally be a less right-wing solution.

Or about the data explicitly proving you wrong. But I guess I must be high.

“Want to go rightwards” - are you fucking high?

No, I just have the misfortune of preferring unpleasant data over feel-good circlejerks about how we’re TOTALLY the silent majority, despite all evidence to the contrary.

People want common sense approaches to social problems.

You do realize this is the exact line that right-wingers say amongst themselves about why people REALLY want a far-right corporatocrat theocracy, right?

More people I know who voted for Trump like and respect Sanders more than any other Dem candidate in the last decade because he’s authentic and true to himself and his beliefs.

Unfortunately, that transfers approximately not-at-fucking-all to electoral success in swaying them to vote for anyone but the fascist ghouls, in the same way that Nazi voters always knew one “good Jew” or modern American right-wing voters always know one person who “deserves” public services or is a “good” member of the LGBT community who deserves their identity.

They’ll vote for the Holocaust all the same, but at least you’ll get an asspat out of it, right?

They don’t think his proposed solutions are going to work, but they’re willing to have a conversation and meet in the middle. The all or nothing ideologues running the Dem right now have no fucking idea what they’re doing, they’re trashing the joint - whether by malice or idiocy is moot at this point. Get these people OUT

“The REAL problem is that the current Dems aren’t willing to compromise and meet in the middle with the fascists!”

Lord.

And you say this is a LESS far-right solution?

Jesus Christ.

The Democrats know perfectly well what they would have to do to defeat Trump. It’s blindingly obvious, after all.

Is it? From a party whose voters want to go rightwards, now, wherein independents are already more right-leaning than that, and the only other major political coalition being even further right than that?

“Just go left, we’ll totally win 😊” is the same line that got people fired up for Corbyn, who proceeded to make no headway in a country already much less right-wing than the US.

Going left being better for the country does not equate to it being the path to electoral victory.

He massively carried water for the whole “if I made it, anyone can” and “black people suffer from a culture of poverty” type of nonsense,

Fuck’s sake, I see we don’t remember any of Obama’s actual presidency in exchange for some weird online circlejerk version.

If there’s one thing that businessmen and investors demonstrate an appalling lack of understanding of, it’s economics.

They had Gelatinous Cube for dessert that night, the remains are hard to get off the plates with anything less.

Good! May it not only continue, but increase!

Faus

The Foxblob emojis are fantastic